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Friday, September 30, 2016

Gloves Are Finally Off Against Those Irreconcilable, Compulsively Sulking Negativists!-1

Since last year, the Indian Army has been monitoring the following launch-pads used by the Pakistan Army to infiltrate its ‘Sarkari Jihadi’ detachments into Jammu & Kashmir: from Bhimber Gali towards Shopian and Anantnag; from Lipa towards Baramula; from Jura towards Sopore; from Athmuqam towards Kupwara; from Dudhnial, Tejian, Shardi, Rattapani and Kel towards Machhal; and from Saonar and Sardari towards Kupwara and Sopore. 
The base camps or sanctuaries for the ‘Sarkari Jihadi’ detachments are located further into the rear within PoK and Khyber Paktunkhwa, as shown in the slide below.
Finally, eight launch-pads spread over a linear 250km frontage and located at Lipa, Kel and Rattapani were chosen for targetted, surgical destruction lasting 7 hours (inclusive of cross ingress/egress) by the Indian Army’s 4 SF (Para) and 9 SF (Para) Battalions. 
(Above) Launch-Pads Destroyed at Athmuqam, Dudhnial, Chalhana and Leepa

However, for retaining the element of surprise and initiative, an elaborate deception plan involving the Indian Army (IA) and Indian Air Force (IAF) was required. For, to be factored in was the high state of the operational readiness at that time of both the Pakistan Army (PA) and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) throughout the LoC. Following the meeting of India’s Cabinet Committee on National Security (CCNS) on September 21, and another meeting between the Indian PM and the two armed services chiefs on September 24, a deception plan jointly prepared by the IA’s Udhampur-based HQ Northern Command and the IAF’s Delhi-based HQ Western Command was put into effect. 
Both the IA and IAF decided to lull ther adversary into assuming that a powerful AirLand attack would be launched at a few locations in southern PoK, namely in the Bhimber sector’s areas like Tatta Pani/Hot Springs area. While the IA decided upon unleashing field artillery fire-assaults against Samahni, Bandala and Tatta Pani, the IAF commenced a series of supporting helicopter movements. 
For starters, by September 24 night, the IAF began ferrying out four Mi-35P attack helicopters belonging to the Pathankot-based 125 ‘Gladiators’ Sqn Sqn (the other Sqn—104 ‘Pioneer Rotarians is at Suratgarh) and making them land at selected locations like Poonch, Rajouri, Bhimber Gali and Krishna Ghati along with in-ptheatre Mi-17V-5s. All these movements were carried out non-stop for the following four days in full view of the PAF’s Saab 2000 AEW & CS platforms that were flying out of Kamra and keeping an eye on almost all air-movements inside both northern Punjab and Jammu & Kashmir.  
Shortly after dusk on Sptember 28, the IA’s light field artillery and mortar strikes at locations inside PoK, like Bandala, Samahni and Tatta Pani, from locations like Mankote, Balnoi and Nangi Tekri in the Krishna Ghati sector, and from Richhmar Gali in Tangdhar sector. 
The real insertion by foot of the IA’s SF (Para), however, took place in the Lipa, Shardi and Rattapani bulges (i.e. areas where Pakistan-controlled territory juts into J & K). Known as the JAW-HEAD tactic, this meant that the IA gave the impression of hitting the enemy’s jaws but in reality was aiming for the forehead in a totally surprising move. 
The bulges were carefully selected so as to present favourable topography for the attacking forces. For, throughout the LoC where IA and PA observation posts and bunkers are located face-to-face, extensive anti-personnel minefields are laid to cover the frontal and flank (left and right) approaches, but the rear area is devoid of any mines so as to facilitate friendly movements. Consequently, a raiding party beginning its ingress into enemy territory from the baselines of any bulge can stealthily sneak in through the rear and attack from the least expected direction. Thus, the IA’s SF (Para) detachments had to penetrate up to a depth of only 700 metres from the LoC but, if calculated from the frontal tip of a bulge, the targetted launch-pads would appear to be up to 3km inside PoK.
Due to this common-sensical mission-planning, the SF (Para) detachments had not need for shoulder-fired LAWs like Carl Gustavs. Only NVDs and weapons like Instalaza C-90 LAW, IWI-built Tavor TAR-21 assault rifles fitted with T-40 40mm single-shot underbarrel grenade launchers (UBGL) supplied by Turkish Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu (MKEK, or Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corp) were used with devastating effect.
The diversionary laying of light field artillery and mortar strikes at locations inside PoK, like Bandala, Samahni and Tatta Pani sent the PA into a tizzy and it has yet to recover from this common-sensical shock-and-awe tactics.

Pakistan ISPR’s Counter-Narrative
When news of the IA’s cross-LoC raids reached the PA’s GHQ in Rawalpindi by 4.30am on January 29, it was wrongly assumed by GHQ that these raids took place only in the PA’s Bhimber and Tatta Pani sectors inside PoK, this being an indication of the successes of the IA’s and IAF’s diversionary tactics. Within the hour, the Pakistani Prime Minister and the PA’s Chief of the Army Staff were told about these raids as well, following which it was decided to contact US Secretary of State John Kerry. In the US, the matter was referred by Kerry to US NSA Dr Susan Rice, who in turn contacted her Indian counterpart Ajit Doval and sought clarifications. Upon receiving the necessary details, clarifications and assurances (that were repeated later in the day at a press-conference by the IA’s DGMO Lt Gen Ranbir Singh), Dr Rice reverted back to Islamabad with the India-supplied updates.
The GHQ then went into a huddle to decide its next course of action. Retaliatory cross-LoC raids were immediately ruled out, since if they were to be conducted, then the PA would have been required to admit that a cross-LoC raid had been mounted by the IA, which in turn would have meant that there indeed were unacknowledged sanctuaries within PoK for accommodating both terrorists and irregular active combatants from proscribed ‘tanzeems’. Consequently, the GHQ decided on an elaborate counter-narrative based on outright denial. 
This then led to the Inter Services Public Relations Directorate (ISPR) organising a press-trip to only those two sectors (Bhimber and Tatta Pani) where the IA had resorted to only cross-LoC shelling.    
On October 1, the press-corps from Islamabad was helilifted first to the Bhimber helipad and from there another Mi-171 ferried the press-corps first to Baghsar, and then to Mandhole village in the PA’s Tatta Pani sector, where it was revealed that the IA’s Sepoy Chandu Babulal Chavan of 37 Rashtriya Rifles was being kept under detention at the Garrison HQ at Nakyal.
So what comes next? It will be logical to assume that before the onset of winter, the Pakistan Army (PA) will try its level-best to facilitate the infiltration of several ‘sarkari jihadis’ into the Kashmir Valley through multiple infiltration routes along the LoC and even through the ‘Working Boundary’ or WB (i.e. Pakistan’s international border with Jammu that includes the Chicken’s Neck area and which India insists is part of the International Boundary or IB and therefore should not be referred to as the WB) under the cover of deliberate field artillery skirmishes. India, on the other hand, by officially stating that it considers the whole of PoK as an integral part of the state of Jammu & Kashmir (J & K), has therefore declared that she will regard any Pakistani support/facilitation for armed insurrection by its ‘sarkari jihadis’ inside J & K who have been launched from their sanctuaries inside PoK as a direct and deliberate act-of-war. Consequently, India therefore has signalled her determination to not only target such sanctuaries through repetitive, preventive cross-LoC special operations, but more significantly, has for all intents and purposes declared her intent to climb the escalatory ladder both horizontally (by expanding the lateral frontage required for offensive ground operations) and vertically by bringing in offensive airpower (like the Jaguar IS armed with CBU-105 SFW) to target all PA field artillery gun emplacement sites, regardless of whether they are located within PoK or to the west of the WB in the northeaster portion of Pakistan’s Punjab state.
This explains the PA’s initiation of mortar fire against Nowshera's Salal and Baba Khor areas Akhnoor's Pallanwalla area and in the Balnoie area of Mendhar sector on September 27, followed by the Sabzian area in Poonch on September 28, 2016. Concurrently, India on September 27 started the process of evacuating nearly 1,000 villages in the six border districts of Punjab state that are within 10km of the India-Pakistan international boundary (around the Shakargarh Salient)—these being  the districts of Amritsar, Tarn Taran, Gurdaspur, Pathankot, Fazilka and Ferozepur. In addition, as a defensive measure the Indian Army (IA) has begun laying anti-tank mines along the Shakargarh Salient and has also begun deploying medium field artillery regiments on both flanks of the Uri-Poonch Bulge as well as around the Shakargarh Salient and Chicken’s Neck area. Through this action, India is signalling that while it has no intention of unleashing its Strike Corps through the IB, she retains the option of unleashing the unrestricted use of her offensive airpower and the IA’s combined armoured and mechanised warfare formations (integrated battle groups) ably supported by field artillery fire-assaults inside both PoK and the Chicken’s Neck area in order to compel the PA to acknowledge that there’s no such thing as a WB and thus its sanctity should be accepted and respected in the same way as the IB.    
To further drive home this point, the Indian Air Force (IAF), barely a week after concluding its annual ‘Talon’ series of air exercises (which are normally held at the same time as the Pakistan Air Force’s annual Highmark series of annual air exercises), activated all 18 of the principal and subordinate air bases of the Western Air Command and Southwestern Air Command on September 26, and began a four-day wargaming exercise that included synchronised air dominance, battlefield air-interdiction and tactical air-interdiction sorties being flown in support of areas of responsibility of the IA’s Southwestern Command (HQed Jaipur, Rajasthan), Western Command (HQed Chandimandir, Chandigarh) and Northern Command (HQed in Udhampur, J & K). Incidentally, the Pakistan Air Force’s EX Highmark had concluded on September 24. 

IB, WB, LoC Explained
It is now important to understand the various territorial boundary/frontier references. The State of Jammu & Kashmir (J & K) has 734km of LoC running through Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh regions from Kargil to Malu (Akhnoor) in Jammu district, while it has 190km of IB from Malu to Punjab belt running through Jammu, Samba and Kathua districts. The International Boundary (IB) between India and Pakistan spans 2,175km. The Working Boundary (WB) spans 202km, the Line of Control (LoC) spans 797km, and the Line of Actual Contact (LAC)—which India calls the AGPL— from map-grid reference NJ-9842 till Indra Kol—spans 108km. The LoC runs from a place called Sangam close to Chhamb (which lies on the west bank of the Munnawar Tawi River) all the way up north to NJ-9842 in Ladakh, following which the Actual Ground Position Line (AGPL) takes over. The WB lies in Jammu Division between Boundary Pillar 19 and Sangam i.e. between Jammu and Sialkot), which was part of the erstwhile princely state of J & K. It is this stretch that is known in India as the International Boundary (IB), while Pakistan refers to it as the WB, since it maintains that the border agreement (the so-called standstill agreement) was inked between the princely state of J & K and Pakistan, and not between India and Pakistan. Given the fact that India maintains a near-foolproof anti-infiltration grid along the LoC, Pakistan has since mid-2013 focussed its terrorist infiltration efforts along the WB. Shakargarh Bulge (which is Pakistani territory) is running adjoining the IB, is 45km x 45km, and is held by the PA. The bulge joins Indian territory with a 40km distance in between both countries and touches India’s National Highway-1, which is the lifeline of the entire Kashmir Valley. If PA troops manage to get effectively operational in three to four days at the tip of the bulge, the NH-1 could be cut of totally, rendering the entire north of India paralysed, as all supplies and winter stocking in the Valley is done by this route, for Indian troops.
(To Be Concluded)

257 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 257 of 257
Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To RAT: How can Governor’s rule produce any decisive results when the administrative machinery at the grassroots-level itself is non-existent? I had already explained this earlier by revealing how the Pakistan-sponsored terrorists & local separatists had begun targetting the local Tehsildars & Gram Panchayat leaders for assassination since 2011 itself. Without these figureheads, all developmental funds meant for disbursement in rural areas get choked. That’s what gave rise to the unorganised unrest & turmoil among the uneducated youth in South Kashmir Valley, something akin to a peasants’ rebellion without any clear agenda or demand.

To SBM: Had already posted the RFI’s weblink earlier in this very thread. They are meant to be multifunction HPRs (far molre capable than EL/M-2258 MF-STAR for the Barak-8 LR-SAM)) for long-range airspace surveillance only, & not for target engagement. The selected model will replace the THALES-built TRS-2215s of 1980s vintage. The RFI issuance also now conclusively proves that the much-touted ‘desi’ LRTR of the DRDO isn’t going to surface anytime soon or perhaps ever at all. IAI/ELTA is the frontrunner for winning this contract, unless Raytheon manages to spring a surprise.

To THE SEEKER: One should expect many more such declaratory cross-LoC surgical strikes, followed by decapitating field artillery strikes starting next month.

To DASHU: Yes indeed. Haven’t you read about plans for developing 26 offshore islands as tourism venues? Or ab out the recent visit of the Sri lankan PM seeking investments for JVs within SEZs in northern Sri Lanka, since the Chinese are now withdrawing from all the earlier-announced grandiose infrastructure development projects in & around Colombo?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

To SUBHO: The F-35??? Let me offer this analogy: The IAF wants a workhorse like a Mitsubishi Pajero to take on lesser-capable Isuzu 4 x 4s of the adversary. Opting for the F-35 will be akin to going for Range Rovers. The projected Tejas Mk.2 MRCA will in every sense of the term equal the JAS-39 Gripen NG. So the choice now is stark: either opt for an imported single-engined workhorse & kill the Tejas Mk.2 project once & for all & with it also the AMCA, or persist with the Tejas Mk.2 R & D effort, since the money is now available thanks to the slowdown in the MRTA & FGFA R & D efforts.

To SPYKAR: Had already stated several times before that the NRUAV project was conceived in 2005 & was dropped by 2009 for good. Nor did anyone propose MiG-21-based UAVs because the turbofans of these platforms cannot be relifed. As for China’s LPARs, I had written about them back in 2015 & had even given their locations. The alleged video-clip shows an artillery strike by the IA inside PoK & since it is colour footage, it’s evident that the video was shot through a colour TV camera of the UAV. Nighttime footage is always taken with thermal imaging cameras & thus no colour apart from black & white is visible. Ad for nitwit Dr Bharat Karnad’s recommendations, they can only come from someone who does not know the A B C & D of engineering of any branch. The PLAAF’s LR-SAM is a S-300PMU2.

To SUJOY MAJUMDAR: VMT, but (LoLz!) I’ve abstained from all forms of ritual worshipping for the past 35 years after making a pact with the Almighty that I would not bother them with any pleas for help & the Gods of Yore in turn should leave me to my fate. Thus far, this arrangement has worked just fine. As for the origin of all the Sanskrit chants from the priesthood community, the real takeaway is that the priesthood have arrogated to themselves the status of ‘middlemen’ or ‘dalaals’ according to which they claim that the commoners’ prayers in their respective mother-tongues won’t be heard or entertained by the Almighty since the Almighty uses voice recognition algorithmns that are optimised for receiving & processing only those chants/requests/pleas that are scripted & uttered in Sanskrit.

Srinivasa Nanduri said...

HI Prasun,

Yesterday I read an article that said Chinese Ambassador to SriLanka said China will welcome Indian participation in Colombo project.

Then news reports stating India should talk to others as well on NSG and should not use Terror for politics.

Mixed messages. Whats the real deal here. Will we get into NSG. If so what will be the deal china agree to? And will JEM be blacklisted anytime soon? How long will China back Pakistan. Cant India do anything to teach a lesson or two to China on this?

Regards,
Srinivasa Nanduri

Ved said...

Dear Prasun,
How many Tejas mk2 do you expect to be inducted after the 120 mk1a?
How it will be any better than mk1a?

Spykar said...

Dada,

S-300PMU2 is the missile system but what is the LRSAM to be used in conjunction with the LPAR?

What about the operational status of the India specific LPAR at Sichuan?

Also, You wrote of 2 LPARs in 2015 (but the sina report says of four) and said that.. "China has not yet revealed the design of the LR-SAM that will be used for BMD, but it is estimated that the final end-product, still undergoing development, will bear a close resemblance to Russia’s 9M82 and 9M83 family of hyper-velocity LR-SAMs."

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2015/08/plaafs-bmd-network-takes-shape.html

rad said...

hi prasun
If The Lca mk2 is equal to the gripen then it will killing our hard spent money so far and pulling the rug under the good men who were behind the program. BUt will the LCA mk2 be equal in performance?.Lengthening the fuselage and adding more weight will make it as sluggish as the present LCA? in spite of the better engine ?Am i right .

Why this sudden talk of vshorads? when we have gone in for the spider?Is spider a contender?

is the new radar tender pointing towards the uhf ultra radar ? Conventional radar in higher bands will not be able to detect stealth .01 m . Does thales and raytheon have a similar radar against stealth?

Millard Keyes said...

Talking about religion. I find it comical when India portrays herself as a secular republic and yet when a weapon or satellite is launched the bosses all walk around with a red tika over their foreheads and pujas before the launch. This is very much a hindu styled ceremony - shouldn't the ceremony be non-religious to depict the secular nature of India? I mean it is rude to have a puja when there are soldiers and staff from other faiths. How is India then different to Pakistan having a religious basis for everything? Same goes for naming weapons - Pinaka, Rudra, Shakti, Arjun, etc why not stick to say MBRL-2, HGS - 1 which doesn't reflect any religious bias.

Spykar said...

@dashu

http://www.financialexpress.com/economy/niti-aayog-studies-chinese-coastal-manufacturing-zones/413533/

Prasun da, as per your reply to dashu, it doesnt seem to me that the 26 islands identified for developing tourism has any SEZ or industrial component. The official statement reads '“Development activities shall be centered around basic infrastructure, tourism, agriculture (including organic agriculture and fisheries), and carbon-neutral energy generation,” and maybe some strategic facilities.

Spykar said...

You said "How can Governor’s rule produce any decisive results when the administrative machinery at the grassroots-level itself is non-existent? .... That’s what gave rise to the unorganised unrest & turmoil among the uneducated youth in South Kashmir Valley, something akin to a peasants’ rebellion without any clear agenda or demand."

Isnt this the precise reason for imposing Governor's rule in JK as the constitutional machinery is failing? What do you think are the other alternatives, to rectify the situation and resolve the crisis at the state level as the Governor's rule can only be imposed when all other alternatives has been exhausted, to prevent any breakdown?

Anonymous said...

I too have heard that they have been systematically been eliminating the local gov or anyone that have supported the Indian state in Jammu & Kashmir. That is why I suggested Governor's rule. Get the IA to run the place. It will be more efficient, less corruption and we may get few of the kashmiri's on our side. What is troubling is that the educated ones have joined the uneducated ones now.

Your answer to SUBHO above is probably the best I have seen, why we need to stick with the LCA.

RAT

Spykar said...

Dada

You said "So the choice now is stark: either opt for an imported single-engined workhorse & kill the Tejas Mk.2 project once & for all & with it also the AMCA, or persist with the Tejas Mk.2 R & D effort, since the money is now available thanks to the slowdown in the MRTA & FGFA R & D efforts."

Not so stark. I think the govt. is planning to have them BOTH as an 'imported' single-engined LMRCA addresses the immediate IAF needs and the government's consideration for cost, ToT and rapid production in India without killing the TejasMK2 i.e. while the private sector starts with absorbing the technology for the Rafale & Gripen/F-16, and HAL concentrate solely on the manufacture of TejasMk-1 and R&D for Tejas Mk-2 and the upcoming FGFA. (I guess AMCA would benefit the most out of it). Also, 'Make in India' LMRCA would also significantly add to the indigenous aerospace ecosystem as the future orders for Rafale in small batches do not provide any meaningful options for manufacture, besides shooting up the costs.

At-least you can't dismiss that such a plan is under serious consideration by the brass. Though the IAF will have to face the challenge of multiple platforms and logistics in the medium term but hey! the IAF should have become proficient on that count, buying inventory from the Ruskies, Americans, British, French and Israel as if in a global grocery store for the past few decades!

Ludwig said...

What would you recommend sir? About Tejas and Gripen, what do you think would be the right thing to do? Also when can we see Tejas MKII with TVC?

The Seeker said...

Sir, Wishing you a happy Vijaya Dashami. Modi had already said that this year's vijaya dasami is 'very special'. So I am expecting one.

BTW Any thoughts on this :-

http://www.caravanmagazine.in/lede/facing-demons

"Many Dalit and Adivasi communities have honoured Mahishasur as a real-life historical hero, and not a mythical demon, for thousands of years. In recent times, some have tied his story to the “Aryan invasion” theory, which posits that, several millennia ago, a group of Indo-Aryan people conquered the subcontinent and enslaved its indigenous inhabitants. Today, though the theory remains deeply contested in academic circles, many believe that India’s present Dalit and Adivasi residents are the descendants of those indigenous people. Many Dalits and Adivasis consider Mahishasur to have been an indigenous king who was killed during the supposed invasion, and accuse upper-caste Hindus of demonising him as part of an effort to suppress narratives of resistance against Brahminism"

The Seeker said...

Sir,

One more query,

What happened to the NSTL's submadrone programme? Plus does the IN has any requirement for autonomous sea-surface vehicles? Any indigenous R&D going on in that direction>?

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

This report is quite alarming http://idrw.org/scientists-dying-mysteriously/ has the government taken any action to get to the bottom of this?

Best Regards
Raj

Anonymous said...

Hi Prasun,

Appreciate your inputs on this video from Pak media about India's investment in Chabahar port.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHBB2iq6wRU

Best Regards
Raj

Unknown said...

@Pierre Zorin

Secular means separating religion from activities of the state. Secular does not mean being irreligious. Ceremonies of applying tilak etc does not force the same on those who do not want it eg muslims, christians, atheists etc. The term Secular has European roots as christian church intervened in state activities which had to be independent. Even science in Europe was dictated by the Church like the earth is flat etc. During those periods Pagan religions were systematically persecuted (including jews) by the state embedded within the Church. The Indian context is not that. Hence, secularism is to be read in the larger dharmic sense. In fact the sanskrit translation of the Indian Constitution mentions "Secular" as "Panth Nirpeksh" and not "Dharma Nirpeksh", as Dharma is the foundation of the Indian civilisation.

Further, political islam does not give scope for other religions to flourish because it arrogates itself as the sole true religion of the world. Hence Jehadi outfits targeting non muslims and their places of worship. Dharmic religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism do not theologically carry exclusivist ideology. As the latter three religions are in majority in India, hence it has retained its secular character. Secular character is culturally prevalent in India and not because of word secular inserted in the Constitution. hope this explains the difference between india and pakistan. Reference to Arjun, Varun etc have an etymological meaning which suitably represents the effect envisaged in the weapon system, which may come in limited ways. these are indigenous words whereas Pakistani words like Ghauri, Shaheen etc are non indigenous to Pakistan. These were turkish, mughal invaders from outside who persecuted indian including the indian muslims.

Thanks and Regards

Kunal Kaistha

Satya said...

India to build Israel type concrete wall along the Pakistan border with latest Israeli technology www.abplive.in/india-news/india-pakistan-border-to-soon-have-a-concrete-wall-sources-427568 great news if true. Should be done asap. Whats your take on this

Anonymous said...

Hello Prasun,
hearing about the imminent silent death of LCA is heart breaking, although, you have been warning us about this project is just a tech. demonstration of few scientists. Is there any hope left for Indian aviation manufacturing to pickup and grow just like the way automobile industry pickedup and became a job giver and escape the strangulating grip of HAL and its trade unions. Please share your opinion.

The Seeker said...

An ARJ21 baces AEW&C?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CujnL7oUIAAqW7n.jpg

rad said...

to piere zorin
Yes what you said is true. but the fact is this is largely a hindu country which you have to accept . THe Pooja for the lca induction was of 3 faiths which never happened before.In the army bases there are there are temples for all faiths. I dont see prayers offered in other faiths in western secular countries in the military. A Padre is embedded in units to give last rights to fallen soldiers in western secular countries not for other religions..I dont know now.

Spykar said...

@pierre zorin

You are mistaken my friend. Naming of such weapons are rooted in mythology, a shared cultural construct, i.e. a common language & understanding that binds our individuals and communities together. Naming weapons as such also personifies the weapons, gives it purpose, meaning and validation and most of all, a frame of reference i.e. a vehicle to the idea behind the weapon itself. Don't confuse it with any religious bias. Religious or secular, all such rituals, ceremonies and naming, makes profound sense to one group of people. Though not to everyone. They cannot be rationalised beyond a point. You either accept it or you don't. BTW official ceremonies are always multi-religious. Check this :

http://www.india.com/photos/news/made-in-india-light-combat-aircraft-tejas-inducted-into-iaf-72651/multi-religious-prayer-ceremonies-were-held-during-the-induction-ceremony-of-tejas-72657

Anonymous said...

@rad:
U.S. Army has chaplains from all religions.

Arpit Kanodia said...

@Zorin

Ask basic question first? When Hindism came into existence? 10000 yrs ago? 2000 yrs ago? Or 500 yrs ago?
Before Persians started to call this south asian land as Yindu, what was Hinduism? Do pujas started just after Persians started to denote this land with some names?

What was religion of Ashoka the great? What was religion of Ram or Ravana? What was religion of Krishna? Why no mythologies exist about like 100 years of war in Hinduism? Why mahabharata? Why no empire existed in subcontinent like Holy Empire or Caliphate based on hinduism?

If Hinduism is a religion, then why not this thing act like a religion?

Or we looking things from western prism? When the prism required is of lead, we still using of Glass?

Arpit Kanodia said...

My only advice dont take western ideology as hard and fast rule. Western ideology obviously risen in past 200 years, while bharat's ideology was in nose dive since ashoka the great.

Western ideology is only 200 yrs old while multi culturism is 50 yrs old.

But in india, multi culturism even existed during Ram to Ashoka the great.

Arpit Kanodia said...

Furthur if we want to throw away our culture and in kennedy style our 10'000 yrs old way of life, just because RSS trying very hard to convey hinduism as religion. Then we are most stupid persons on entire planet earth.

Even, then whats the difference between Pakis and us. Those Pakis forgotten their mother toungue, now you want us to do same?

Arpit Kanodia said...

Btw, 15% of us already forgotten our heritage? And Tarek Fateh is very right.

Why no indian muslim use names like Kamal, Naina etc. Why no one use even Dara Sheikho?

Ask any Indonesian to use arabic names, instead of their cultural names. They laugh like hell.

Arpit Kanodia said...

Lastly, maybe i posted too many comments. :P

If US is that much secular in army like u say, then what is the role of military chaplains or padre in US Army? Or US saying atheists, sikhs or Muslims, dont exist in their army? Or they saying only jews and christians exist in their army?

Why in Vietnam War, Fathers were integral parts of deployed army as last rites? Even after US came into existence arnd 1780 as secular nations,

What the fuck christian fathers were doing in Normandy during WW2 ?

Interestingly you dont find such thing in Indian Army.

Vijay said...

Dear Sir

There are reports in some TV News Channels that Pakistan has
deployed TANKS and 2 Artilerry Regiments and SSG commandos in the Chamb Sector

What do you make of this news

CSC said...

Unknown and rad have actually answered Pierre quite well

I have a couple of things to add, a Ganesh puja or a vishwakarma puja to start something or pray homage to the God of tools and workmanship is age old and doing it is not a disrespect to anyone

What would be disrespect is to deny one's own history as mythology just bcos centuries of raiders and plunderers burnt most documentary proof of the same

Spykar said...

@anonymous at 4.51 PM

Silent death of LCA..? !! LCA numbers are guaranteed to increase. Rest assured.

Any hope left for Indian aviation manufacturing to pickup? You can Bet a capital B on it!

Mind you, Prasunda doesnt like sulking negativists!

Hanut the Warrior said...

Prasoon,

In the Jaguar re-engine deal with honeywell f125 engines, is there any make in india component or offset provisions? Can you describe plz?

Prasun K. Sengupta said...

http://www.abplive.in/india-news/pakistan-defence-expert-admits-to-surgical-strikes-says-at-least-5-terrorists-killed-in-dudhniyal-427704

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAnvVGGM4ws

SUVO said...

Prasun da,
is it possible to create customised version of Kamorta having 8 Brahmos VLS or other anti-ship/Land-attack missile and also 16 cells Barak 8LRSAM and Israeli MF-STAR radar, C-Dome point defense system.

Arpit Kanodia said...

@CSC what is more disgraceful when someone refuse to sing and say Vande Matram?

Reasons are unknown to me.

rad said...


secularism was in fact practiced in india, thousands of years ago according to my personal view, long before the concept was ever thought of in the west where it was never heard of in the past.
I will tell you how.
Muslim arab traders landed in the coast of kerala and slowly started to spread islam .Then kings of kerala could have easily kicked them out or even killed them but they chose not to and allowed them to flourish and even marry local women. Thus developed a section called moplas.
St Thomas one of the direct disciples of christ landed up in the coast of kerala and started spreading Christianity , by preaching his god and religion was superior etc. Again the then kings let him be, because in India kings welcomed people from other lands and culture to their darbar and tried to learn knowledge and wisdom from other lands by debate .Thus they were open to other religions.
St Thomas then moved to Tamil nad where he started converting local poor illiterate people to Christianity .This was opposed by the then kings who had warned him not to do so . but as he still persisted, he was killed . His remains are in ST Thomas church in Chennai.
The Jews were welcomed in cochin as well and flourished till date .
The Zoroastrians persecuted in iran came to india in Gujarat and are still flourishing today. Prasun can correct me on facts of history.

India not secular??????

Spykar said...

Uri attack : Patriots Vs Traitors :: A Warning! Its Uncensored ::

https://youtu.be/xFrvys94swE

Spread the word.

The Seeker said...

@vijay

Papistani Tanks, Artilleries and Commandos are good for nothing, except maybe as this song goes : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8uK_mWnbr4

Delusions of grandeur & a total wastage of precious time! Bringing Tahir Shah would have been more destructive. He has got spectrum eyes!

Anonymous said...


India is no different to Pakistan (or Israel) when it comes to the use of religion. India derives the names of it's systems, from the Hindu religion and Hindu religious warriors. Pakistan derives it's from Islam and Islamic warriors. American, European, Russia and China generally don't in the current era (last 20 years). There is nothing wrong with either approach.

Where Indians get muddled up is when they try to compare themselves with western nations and their notion of the role of religion in state affairs. India was closer to western notion 30 years ago but today it is much closer to Pakistan. Question is do Indians really care about this?

Anthony

RAT said...

Hi Prasun,

Thanks for providing detailed answers to everyones queries I have 2 questions

1) Is this one step closer to relations between the two countries?

http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/world-us-welcomes-india-s-prominent-role-in-world-white-house-352148

2) And is this true or a Joke?

http://www.india.com/news/world/us-is-pakistan-real-enemy-claims-hafiz-saeed-america-responds-by-saying-no-need-to-dignify-comments-of-an-avowed-terrorist-1554106/

@ RAT October 11, 2016 at 2:15 PM
Could you please use a different name to post I am using that name to post comments originally. Thanks

Ved said...

Dear Prasun,
Which will be the other make in India jet that will be exercised? If we manage to get Kaveri engine succeed with help from Safran then I believe it's curtains for Gripen. Just GaN based AESA radar won't be enough to convince IAF as Tejas Mk1A and subsequently Tejas Mk2 will be at par with Gripen.F16 and F18 will not convince IAF as no real tech.transfer will happen. So which is that other fighter for MII?

Arpit Kanodia said...

Sir

Your view on this
Check out @PTI_News's Tweet: https://twitter.com/PTI_News/status/786583289804967936?s=09

""""Russia to sign multi-billion deal with India on October 15 for delivery of S-400 #TriumfMissile defence systems: Kremlin""""

Spykar said...

@Anthony

Yes, Indians do care about that. That is why they voted Modi to power and reduced Congress to something by a tenth. Show me some example where India is trying to compare itself with the West's notion of religion in state affairs and also delve on how today it has become closer to pakistan, ('no different' as you say) ?

Unknown said...

@Anthony

There is a difference between religion and dharma. Once you understand the same you will be discerning about the use of religion in China, Russia or European countries. Post Renaissance Europe and Russia have moved out of the church, Christianity and government combined together trap. Hence they till date refrain from using Christian symbolism. But their constitution talks of these nations as christians nations. In China communism is religion agnostic although they are aggressively marketing confusion ism. India on the contrary has secular (unlike Israel where constitution specifies the state as a Jewish state) constitution and does not market Hinduism or even claims itself officially to be a Hindu state. Only political discourse on India is creating a perception which you are falling prey to. Even if you closely observe the present bjp government, they have done nothing for Hindus or Hinduism. There is a big perception for vote banks being played our in India.

Unknown said...

There is a difference between religion and dharma. Once you understand the same you will be discerning about the use of religion in China, Russia or European countries. Post Renaissance Europe and Russia have moved out of the church, Christianity and government combined together trap. Hence they till date refrain from using Christian symbolism. But their constitution talks of these nations as christians nations. In China communism is religion agnostic although they are aggressively marketing confusion ism. India on the contrary has secular (unlike Israel where constitution specifies the state as a Jewish state) constitution and does not market Hinduism or even claims itself officially to be a Hindu state. Only political discourse on India is creating a perception which you are falling prey to. Even if you closely observe the present bjp government, they have done nothing for Hindus or Hinduism. There is a big perception for vote banks being played our in India. Regards

Kunal

Amardeep said...

sir what u think about this http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/russia-and-india-to-sign-delivery-deal-for-s-400-missiles-on-saturday-1473829?pfrom=home-lateststories

Spykar said...

@Anthony : You say "Where Indians get muddled up is when they try to compare themselves with western nations and their notion of the role of religion in state affairs. India was closer to western notion 30 years ago but today it is much closer to Pakistan. Question is do Indians really care about this?"

You are making a sweeping generalisation. Can you care to back up your statement with some points on which you are basing your views on? Otherwise its just a question hanging midair and going nowhere.

Or are you deriving the notion of India just with the names we give to our Astras and Shastras?

Varunn said...

India and Russia to sign deal for supply of S-400 Triumf on Oct 15 tass.com/defense/906326 are 5 systems enough?

Spykar said...

Dada,

Russian Trade Minister has said JV for production of IL-114-300 , MS-21 and the Sukhoi Superjet has been offered to India. What are the chances? Also seems that the stage has been set for the S-400 deal. Can you delve into it a bit and the associated systems on offer along with it? Will the proposed Batch 3 Project 1135.6 FFGs sales materialize this time?

The Seeker said...

Sir, Last year during the Aero India expo, you said

1. "ALPHA Technologies has teamed up with ELBIT Systems to offer the Lizard LGB kit that converts existing low-drag bombs produced by OFB into laser-guided PGMs. The Lizard kit features control fins in the nose itself & therefore no tailfin kits are required (like those for the Paveway family) & are therefore much cheaper.

2. The IAF has through its own in-house resources designed two PGMs: a turbofan-powered cruise missile with folding wings, & an unpowered glided version. Both missiles have all-composite airframe structures."

What happened to it?

Spykar said...

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201610131046309796-minerals-india-mining-frontier/

http://www.ptinews.com/news/7965328_China--Pak-not-letting-India-use-its-own-resources--Ahir.html


Ram Bharadwaj said...

Prasun

Is the deal for the acquisition of S-400 Triumf on the verge of signing?

TOI and many others are claiming that S-400 in its primary role of Air Defence against Fighter Aircrafts would make PAF vulnerable in its own airspace.

Will the S-400 used as a AAD or in a BMD role?

Millard Keyes said...

Arpit Kanodia: "If US is that much secular in army like u say"- did I misread my own comments? Where did I mention that? Regardless of where the name originated it is my personal opinion where multi-ethnic and religions exist better stick to neutral names instead of those whose origin can be linked to one religion. Why name an inanimate material anyway. Who calls their tables, chairs, bikes, cars something be it Jodie, Varun, Rahman or whatever... I was just referring to that - NOTHING to do with which is a greater religion, what should people believe, no disrespect to anyone's faith.

Ajit said...

Is this a simple case of russia safeguarding itself, or is it really a strategic shift. If so what can we do:


http://thewire.in/72650/india-tilts-westwards-russia-looks-pakistan-widen-strategic-options/


Spykar said...

@Pierre

Even inanimate objects such as bikes, cars have names. You cant give something an Indian name without in some way linking and attributing to our beliefs peculiar to our society and worlview. Giving a name to our weapons such as the Trishul, Pinaka, Rudra, Vajra or Varunastra derived from legends and epics effectively Geotags it, while reafirming to our age old belief and the science of Dharmayudh, the war for righteousness, a discourse as old as history itself but largely missing today.

Because of the power involved in those weapons, specific conditions existed involving the usage of these legendary astras and they were wielded only in dire situations. Remember, Weapons are also for psychological warfare, mostly. Neutrality is not an option there.

Also, there is nothing 'inanimate' in our culture be it Sun(Surya), Fire(Agni), Earth(Pritvi) or Air(Akash) or even stone. Everything has a guna i.e. quality/energy. Naming them as such sort of invokes the desired qualities in our weapons, similar to naming a child in India for that matter. Whats the harm in it anyway?



The Seeker said...

Pierre : "Talking about religion. I find it comical when India portrays herself as a secular republic and yet when a weapon or satellite is launched the bosses all walk around with a red tika over their foreheads and pujas before the launch. This is very much a hindu styled ceremony - shouldn't the ceremony be non-religious to depict the secular nature of India? .....Regardless of where the name originated it is my personal opinion where multi-ethnic and religions exist better stick to neutral names instead of those whose origin can be linked to one religion. Why name an inanimate material anyway."

Not only we name inanimate material, but we worship them too. That establishes the idea that is Hinduism. I know its not rational if you arent a Hindu or even if you are (as this idea disturbs most people & any attempt to challenge its validity is met with outrage) but its ironical that for all the value we give to the rational, life is primarily governed by the irrational. Love and sorrow are not rational. Hatred, ambition, rage, greed and even ethics, morals and aesthetics are irrational. They depend on values and standards which are ultimately subjective. What is right, sacred to one group of people need not be to another group.

Names, and in a wider sense, all symbols, rituals and ceremonies are essentially languages. Languages that are heard, seen, performed and understood. Together they construct the common truth of a culture. For hindus, all of creation is divine. Everything is therefore worthy of worship and has divine essence. There is no discomfort visualizing the divine in plants, animals, mountains, rocks and in inanimate objects such as pots, pans, pestles and mortars. (And in this case arms and weapons for instilling fear in our enemies.) Anything can have a divine quality and name as long as it can respond to these human ideas.

In many Shrines, rocks are given human form merely by placing a pair of eyes. It indicates that it is conscious, sensitive and responsive. People from other religion and culture shoudnt have any problem with that. A Hindu God with ten arms and a demon with ten heads project a universe where there are infinite possibilities, better or for worse. They are inherited truths. These symbols & beliefs cant be discarded in the face of modernity and the intermingling of ideas from other cultures. The practices needs to be assimilated however irrational it may seem to others.

Take for example, as long as the Greeks believed in Charon, they placed copper coins for him in the mouth of the dead. So long as the Egyptians believed in the afterworld ruled by Osiris, they built pyramids. Today no one believes in Osiris or Charon so there are no pyramids or coins in the mouth of the dead. It has been lost and replaced by other belief system. I hope you get the point.

CSC said...

A little piece from history:

On 16 Dec 1971, 2nd Lieutenant Arun Khetrapal of the 17 Poona Horse Regiment, was killed in the Battle of Basantar and was awarded the nation's highest gallantry award, the Param Vir Chakra. His portrait hangs in the central lobby of the Sudan Block in the NDA.

In 2001, Brigadier ML Khetarpal (Father of Late 2nd Lt Arun Khetarpal, PVC) then 81 years old - felt a strong desire to visit his birthplace Sargodha, now in Pakistan. At Lahore airport, Brigadier Khetarpal was met by Brigadier Khwaja Mohammad Naser, who took it upon himself to be Brigadier Khetarpal’s host and guide. Brigadier Naser really went out of his way to ensure that Brigadier Khetarpal had a satisfying and nostalgic visit to his old house in Sargodha.

Upon his return to Lahore he was once again the guest of Brigadier Naser for three days. Brigadier Khetarpal was overwhelmed by the extreme kindness, deference, courtesy and respect bestowed upon him by Brigadier Naser and by all the members of his family and his many servants. However Brigadier Khetarpal felt that something was amiss but could not make out what it was. Was it the long silences that punctuated their animated conversation or was it the look of compassion in the eyes of the women in the family? He could not make out but was sure he was being treated as someone very special. Finally, on the last night before Brigadier Khetarpal's departure, Brigadier Naser said "Sir, there is something that I wanted to tell you for many years but I did not know how to get through to you. Finally, fate has intervened and sent you to me as an honoured guest. The last few days we have become close to one another and that has made my task even more difficult."

"It is regarding your son who is, of course, a national hero in India. However on that fateful day, your son and I were soldiers, unknown to one another, fighting for the respect and safety of our respective countries. I regret to tell you that your son died in my hands. Arun's courage was exemplary and he moved his tank with fearless courage and daring, totally unconcerned about his safety. Tank casualties were very high till finally there were just two of us left facing one another. We both fired simultaneously. It was destined that I was to live and he was to die. It was only later that I got to know how young he was and who he was. I had all along thought that I would ask your forgiveness, but in telling the story I realize that there is nothing to forgive.

Instead I salute your son for what he did at such a young age and I salute you too, because I know how he grew into such a young man. In the end it is character and values that matter."

Brigadier Khetarpal was silent as he did not know how to react. To be enjoying the hospitality of the person who had killed his son was a confusing feeling. However being a soldier himself he genuinely admired the chivalry of an officer whose complete squadron was decimated by his son. Both the Brigadiers retired for the night deep in thought. There are never any victors in war; both sides lose and it is the families that have to pay the price and suffer the most. As someone once said 'Wars are created by politicians, compounded by bureaucrats and fought by soldiers.'

The next day photographs were taken and Brigadier ML Khetarpal returned back to Delhi. Later the photos reached Delhi along with a note from Brigadier Naser that said:
"With Warmest regards and utmost sincerity, To: Brigadier M.L. Khetarpal, Father of Shaheed Second Lieutenant Arun Khetarpal, PVC, (who stood like an unsurmountable rock, between the victory and failure, of the counter attack by the 'SPEARHEADS' 13 LANCERS on 16 December 1971 in the battle of "Bara Pind' as we call it and battle of "Basantar' as 17 Poona Horse remembers) "

This is what soldiering is made of - honour and respect among enemies.

Just an understanding of the exceptional men who we esp our politicians talk about so casually

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